Jennifer Herrema Talks Black Bananas, Past Projects, Upcoming Music, and More

Jennifer Herrema interests and inspires us on several levels here at WMF, and we’re hardly alone in that sentiment. Through her prestigious and substantial body of work via projects that include Royal Trux, RTX, and (our personal favorite) Black Bananas, Jennifer’s creative musical output deftly and credibly draws from an eclectic well of inspiration that includes blues, rock, r ‘n’ b, noise, funk, go-go, and more. In addition to her substantial contributions as a recording artist, producer, and performer, Jennifer’s loaded CV also includes modeling for (and apparently inspiring) a Calvin Klein campaign, designing clothing for Volcom, styling for Playboy, conducting interviews with blues and rock royalty, and even participating in an Ivy League lecture on southern rock.

Past accolades and accomplishments notwithstanding, Jennifer Herrema put in a productive 2019, and shows no sign of pulling back in 2020. Fat Possum released Royal Trux album White Stuff last year, which was followed in short order by its companion EP,Pink Stuff. The latter, aptly-titled release consists of Ariel Pink remixes of select White Stuff tracks, and is one of WMF’s highest-recommended releases of the year, especially thanks to standout track “Suburban Junky Lady”.

It’s been four years since the most recent Black Bananas release (2016’s “Spydr Brain” seven-inch via OSR Tapes), so we jumped when we had the opportunity to hear Jennifer (along with Kurt Midness and Barrett Avner) perform what sounded like new material last October at Pappy & Harriet’s. The performance was part of a brief string of live shows featuring a shared bill with Ariel Pink, and one we were fortunate to have caught. Curious if the material signaled the possibility of an upcoming Black Bananas release, and eager to get first-hand info on an array of topics related to Jennifer Herrema’s past, present, and future work, we were delighted to meet her and husband/collaborator Kurt Midness at the Black Bananas Costa Mesa studio. This first WMF conversation of 2020 was as fun and freewheeling as it was informative, and it is our distinct pleasure to share it with you here.

Bobby Weirdo: Here we are in Costa Mesa, which is an area I don’t know a lot about. You work here in your studio, and live in Huntington Beach, right?

Jennifer Herrema: Yeah, we live [about] ten miles north at Huntington Harbour, Sunset Beach. It’s a little complex where there are huge open wetlands next to a river. It’s pretty cool over there. I bought that place sixteen years ago when I moved here after Neil [Hagerty] and I sold our farm in Virginia. I didn’t want to be super far away – like in the mountains – but I grew up in the city, and I wanted to stay the fuck out of the city. I found this place, and the guy I was working with – Brian [McKinley] is from here. Nadav [Eisenman] is from here, Jaimo [Welch] is from here…it all just worked out. We’ve been in this studio for sixteen years, [and] all our records are done here.

*Jennifer Herrema and Bunny in 2020. Photo: Cameron Murray for WMF*

BW: And when you’re talking about those records, and listing those names, you’re talking about the RTX crew that then went on to become Black Bananas, right?

JH: It’s RTX and Black Bananas, and Brian crossed over into Royal Trux, too. Jaimo has been absent for the better part of the past six years, but [was there] for the first ten years.

BW: You mentioned growing up in the city, and I think you grew up in the southeastern part of Washington D.C., right?

JH: Southeast D. C. – yeah.

BW: I’m pretty unfamiliar with D.C. – what would you say is significant about Southeast D.C. in particular?

JH: At the time – in the 80s – it was the murder capital city. The Anacostia River ran right by RFK Stadium where the Redskins would play. On the other side [of the river] is Anacostia, which was the danger zone, and super segregated. So when you say Southeast, you’re kind of referencing the stadium, the fucking dirty-ass river, and Anacostia, as opposed to Northwest D.C., with the National Cathedral and all of the embassies. So I specifically say Southeast, because most white people were not from Southeast at that time.

*Jennifer Herrema, 2020. Photo: Cameron Murray for WMF*

BW: Talking about those early days, you’ve mentioned your best friend growing up, Jamie White…

JH: Jamie White – yeah!

BW: And her mom Carol, who was sort of like your first style icon or influence. Did you ever tell her that, or do you think it ever got back to her that she was an inspiration to you?

JH: I don’t know. I don’t even know where they are, if she’s alive, or if she OD’d on coke.

BW: As far as what made an impression on you, it was the furs and the denim, and…

JH: Yeah – it was next level. It was as if Cher met Twiggy, [and had] George Hamilton’s skin, you know?

BW: About how old were you at that time?

JH: Five or six, right before we moved out of my grandparents’ basement to Southeast D.C. in second grade and went to Catholic school for one year.

BW: A lot of people have spoken with you about the rock music that came out of D.C., and of course hardcore has a strong association with D.C., but I wanted to talk about go-go. I don’t know if the Black Bananas track “RTX Go-Go” is a reference to that go-go….

JH: Oh, yeah!

BW: What kind of experience or interactions did you have with go-go that might have influenced the artist that you became?

JH: Go-go was a big Southeast and Southwest [thing]. I lived across the street from Lincoln Park, and the house had burned down in the riots back in the day. They had the upside-down paint cans in Lincoln Park, and it would just be happening. I would go to sleep listening to it outside the window, because we were right on the park. You could drink in the park as long as you had a brown paper bag, and everybody had bars on the windows. The cops weren’t going to say, “Hey – stop [playing],” and nobody complained.

Maybe by 8th or 9thgrade, I started seeing fliers and posters of where people were going to be playing, like a rec center. So it wasn’t just the guys who were across the park – it had taken on its own life, which was really cool.

BW: One last D.C.-related question -- you’ve produced two projects with which Ian Svenonius is involved: Weird War and The Make-Up.

JH: Yeah.

BW: Did the two of you know each other since your D.C. days, or did you meet elsewhere and put that together later? How did you end up knowing each other and working together?

JH: By the time of Nation of Ulysses, I was in New York. We just kind of knew each other, and I would see him. When Neil and I lived in Rappahannock County, Virginia, I would go in to the city to see my psychiatrist at Dupont Circle. So [Ian and I] would see each other and hang out and talk. We always knew each other – I just don’t know why or how.

BW: When you’ve been a producer – either with Ian’s projects or more in general – what does that look like? Are you working with songwriting aspects, managing personalities, big picture stuff, or details?

JH: With In Mass Mind, [The Make-Up] was a band, and they had their songs. We had heard what they sounded like recorded before, so we chose the studio on purpose. Neil and I really felt that it would [give them] the opportunity to be [in the studio] as a band all at the same time, but with enough separation. We wanted to make it live, but without the bleed. So in that situation we chose the place and how we wanted it to sound based on how we knew we could express it to them. Like, “Hey James, you go over here, and Michelle you go over here.” It made it easy, because we usually think about that ahead of time, and stick to the plot. But the Anita Baker cover [“Caught Up in the Rapture”] was a spur-of-the-moment [thing]. I’m glad [Neil] nudged that issue, because I think it sounds great. So that was our role in that instance.

Let’s say this band Bad Wizard that [Kurt] used to be in. I produced one of their records. Now that was the most producing I ever did – organizing, personality issues, getting lyrics written, [deciding] what is getting tracked first, [keeping] people on task…I pretty much knew [it was going to be like that] and I wasn’t going to do that, but I was in New York, I met with the record label, and they said they’d pay me [a certain amount].

So I said OK, and it was fun. But I was like, “Fuck!” You know what I mean? I usually reserve that kind of energy for myself, but it’s also good to get outside of yourself and get paid for it.

BW: There are two record labels of which you were really on the ground floor – Drag City and Domino.

JH: Mm-hmm.

BW: I’m wondering if there was a formal plan to start those labels based on Royal Trux, and what came first…

JH: Drag City came first. The initial postcard that made it to my parents’ house in D.C. – and then made it out to me on the way to San Francisco – said, “I work part time at Kaleidoscope record distributors in Chicago”….

BW: This is one of the Dans from Drag City?

JH: Koretzky. He said, “I want to start a record label based around [Royal Trux].” I didn’t know this person, but there was a return [address], so I just wrote, “Okay.” And that’s how that started.

Nothing was ever signed or anything – it was just…we make a lot of art, we write, we play, we record, we do visuals, all this stuff…and then their job was to sell it, if they wanted to take fifty percent of the money. So, that was the exchange.

BW: The label would take fifty percent of everything you did – the art and the music.

JH: Well, fifty percent of the money that was generated. We maintained all ownership.

BW: So if I understand correctly, Drag City was originally based around the Royal Trux esthetic, or vibe, but later there’s a split, or a difference of opinion between you and Drag City. You weren’t, for instance, allowed to have a manager. Is that correct?

JH: Yeah—we were like Dan Koretzky’s retarded children that kept close, and he had special love and admiration [for us]. We inspired him or something, but it was almost like we were some elixir. They would entice people into the fold because of the elixir that they inadvertently aspired to – what Royal Trux is. It’s a very interesting relationship.

Honestly, I don’t want to pay attention to distribution, so I always had total faith in whatever decisions [they made] on their end. It’s kind of like a fashion designer does something, hands it over to the sales reps, and they say, “Well, it’ll be a lot easier for us to sell to Macy’s if you...” like that. It’s this whole process, and we never did that. We always just did whatever.

BW: And then you got connected to Domino through a similar situation, right? They contacted you, saying that they were starting a company in the UK, but they wanted to bring in Royal Trux.

JH: Exactly. Sebadoh and Royal Trux were the first on Domino, and Royal Trux and Pavement were the first on Drag City. And that’s the thing – I really like Laurence [Bell], and Dan [Koretzky] has been one of my best friends for a long time. But then there’s business, and those two dudes are yin and yang, black and white. Laurence is total adrenaline, where Kortetzky sits in the rocking chair.

Laurence killed it as far as making money, whereas Dan likes his little spot. That’s fine, but nothing should about the label. The label only exists to serve the artist – the label is not the identity. The artist is autonomous. It just started feeling cult-like, especially in conversation between myself and Dan in reference to Domino. Despite how well Laurence was doing with his business, Dan would just be negative.

BW: You’ve referenced someone who “schooled your ass” about the music business. He was someone who at some point owned a record shop in San Diego, and eventually contacted you to advise you on the business side of things. Is it secret who that is?

JH :There are a lot of people that caught feelings about Royal Trux rolling out, and I don’t want him to get all the hate, so I’ll just keep it on the DL, you know what I’m saying? Sometimes you talk to somebody, and you realize that it’s just bullshit and all about them. But this dude was on a mission to help. He’s a great dude.

BW: The RTX Western Xterminator album has a pied piper reference within its concept. Have you seen the Western Exterminator neon sign in Silverlake?

JH: Oh yeah, absolutely.

BW: Did the sign inspire that title and idea directly?

JH: It was more the lyric – the name came after the artwork had started. My friend Jessie had started some artwork, and then I handed it off to my friend Andreas [Jenna] in Berlin. I was writing the story of one of the songs to Andreas, and the artwork was his interpretation.

But the name was costly. We got a cease and desist letter from Western Exterminator pest control. It’s actually a really funny letter. It says they’re a family business, clean and respectable, and they were talking about [the album] being metal and dark…it actually said this in the letter, and that the title wasn’t going to work for them even though it wasn’t spelled the same and we didn’t use any of their art.

So we had to destroy all the CDs, vinyl, and cassettes – thousands and thousands. I retitled it RaTX –like “rats” but with an “x” on the end.

BW: Was the video for RTX’s “My House” shot in Tucson?

JH: Yeah.

BW: And was it a pow-wow, or a competition, or what is the event we see in it?

JH: My friend [who] did the video lived there for quite some time and had access to all these people she was hanging out with. There was a pow-wow, and a car…she spent a month hanging out, and she did a really cool job.

BW: That’s Jess Holzworth?

JH: Yeah.

BW: There’s a very Jennifer Herrema moment in that video when we see an Indian art piece based on the Air Jordan logo.

JH: Yeah yeah yeah! I love that; it’s so dope. She knows me. She did the “Creeping the Line” Black Bananas [video] in Tucson [at] a pole-dancing studio. She knew some pole dancers, and she set the whole [thing up]. She knew the owner of four afghan hounds, so it was just kind of makeshift things that we could access. We need to do another video soon.

BW: Speaking of American Indian art, are you still into the vintage Zuni Disney jewelry?

JH: Oh yeah. I’m only wearing the one, but I’m fascinated by it. But, you know, you can get crazy with it. I’m okay with my collection as it is. I have a Minnie, a couple Mickey Mouses, Goofy, Donald Duck, and a Pluto.

BW: All rings?

JH: Pluto is a cuff, but the rest are rings.

BW: I loved the Pioneertown show.

JH: Thanks – that was a really fun show.

BW: I recognized some of the material, like “Give it to Me”, but there was kind of a slow jam you played that I thought might be new, and I didn’t recognize much of the other material.

JH: They were new Black Bananas songs. We just took some of the stems off what we had been recording, threw those on the sampler, and just freestyled on top of it. So those were like sparse ideas of new Black Bananas, [but] it’s not Black Bananas yet.

BW: You mentioned to me a while back that some of that material might end up on a 2020 release?

JH: Yeah, all of that.

BW: Do you know if it will be out on a label, and is there a definite release set?

JH: A bunch of full sessions have been handed over to Ariel and Nadav. They did Pink Stuff right here. I think they’re going to do overdubs and some mixing, so it’s going to be a process that will just be as long as it takes, really. But I feel like it will be summertime, perhaps. Fat Possum owns a pressing plant, so it’s not like you have to wait in line.

BW: You got into the Sex Pistols because pink is your favorite color and Never Mind the Bollocks has a pink cover.

JH: Yeah.

BW: This is probably a silly question, but is it a coincidence that you ended up meeting Ariel Pink? And there’s the Pink Stuff EP of course…

JH: Well, we named it Pink Stuff because obviously the album is White Stuff, and then he did his mix…but no, he introduced himself to me when I first moved out here, like sixteen years ago or so. RTX played with him at the Skate Warehouse. We’ve just been mutual fans of each other for a long time. We both have a lot of stuff going on, but this is something that is going to be like a stream…we’ll see when it manifests to its completion.

BW: The EP?

JH: Yeah, or an album. It’s in the process.

BW: What happened to the “movie” that you were working on with Ariel for Flaunt? Is that findable somewhere?

JH: Yeah. Dudes, this is the thing: I made what was more like a flipbook. It was a stop motion movie out of tons of footage. But I don’t know how to edit – it would be a lot. So I have all the footage, but never finished it, because I had other things to do. You can see the stop motion one – I think it looks really cool.

BW: I think “Physical Emotions” is a masterpiece of a song and a video. I know you don’t want to give too much away about the lyric, but you have mentioned that it was related to some kind of physical experience being in the van on the road.

JH: Yeah, and I talk with Kurt all the time, so Kurt wrote the lyrics, basically. He parsed my [talk] into its most distilled [form]. So it was a combined effort to take in [the talking] and then spit it out. It’s really kind of genius.

BW: Whose idea was it to get Flat Top in the video, and how did that come together?

JH: We’d known about Flat Top because Brian McKinley used to go to Universal CityWalk a lot, and told us about seeing this dude. Years later, we made the song, and Kurt was like, “This song needs Flat Top.” Our friend Wartella, Jack Sample, and Kurt put the whole thing together. Kurt got in touch with Flat Top and organized it.

BW: Is there a typical kind of Black Bananas writing or recording session? You have access to the studio 24/7…

JH: Yeah.

BW: And you and Kurt live together, so do you compartmentalize and only work on sessions here at particular times, or are you always slowly adding to what you’re working on?

JH: We’re kind of always adding to it, but at a certain point when it starts to gain a little momentum, then I make a schedule. Because everybody has to be there all at the same time to finalize it. So it’s a combination.

*Jennifer Herrema in the studio, 2020. Photo: Cameron Murray for WMF*

BW: You gave a lecture on Southern Rock on Princeton. What was that experience like? Had you been reading a lot or thinking a lot on the subject at the time? How were you contacted to participate in that?

JH: Kandia Crazy Horse had been a head editor of The Village Voice, was a rock critic, and a fan for a really long time. She wrote about [Royal Trux] a lot and understood the nature of our music, which included not just a few things – it included everything that we were influenced by. [She had] read interviews with me [knew] about Artumis Pyle’s son [Chris], and understood that [what we were doing] made sense and it was not a non-sequitur.

The writer Stanley Booth was [there], Jonathan Wilson, and this super industry dude. Stanley Booth and I got completely faded in the lobby of the hotel. It was fun – basically everybody sat in a half-circle on the stage, people from the school would ask a question, and it would just turn into a conversation. It was a flow of ideas – it wasn’t like, “What year and what day of the week was ‘Gimme Back My Bullets’ recorded for the very first time?” You know, it wasn’t like quiz show shit – it was fun.

BW: You recently interviewed Ariel in Autre, you’ve interviewed Keith Richards, and you also interviewed John Lee Hooker. How did the John Lee Hooker interview come about?

JH: It was through Virgin, a really long time ago. We had a conversation and [it was] recorded. He was really cool.

BW: Did you take anything away from that, like a vibe or feeling?

JH: Oh yeah. I’ve met a lot of different people, and my gut is pretty right on. Sometimes I get fooled – don’t get me wrong. But John Lee Hooker was so genuine and humble, and not in a false [way]. It was just cool listening to him talk.

*Jennifer Herrema and Bunny, 2020. Photo: Cameron Murray for WMF*

BW: You’re one of the only people I’ve ever met who has flown on the Concorde. How did you end up doing that?

JH: It was aroundThank You– ’95 or ’96. At a certain point, Neil just decided he wasn’t going to fly. That just became known…

BW: You were taking ships a lot to Europe for tours, right?

JH: Yeah, it wasn’t like each time people were shocked. We had a travel agent who always knew. We took the QE2 back [home], but we needed to be somewhere, and we didn’t have the five nights, six days trans-Atlantic time to get to wherever…it was some sort of press or video. So the only way to do that was to do the Concorde. At that time, the Concorde had never had a wreck – it was only later that shit started going bad for them.

There was no Google, so I wasn’t Googling it, and I had no idea [what to expect]. It was very small. In my mind there were thirty people at the most – probably less. They started coming around to tell [us] what was going on, I looked outside, and all of a sudden it was black. You were in the ionosphere, above our atmosphere…it was space. It was cool; I’m glad I got to do it. We probably would have taken the boat if we had the time, so it was cool not have the time.

BW: So among other things, you have the new music coming out this year that we’ve been speaking about. What else is coming up for Jennifer Herrema and Black Bananas?

JH: There’s an art show that I’m supposed to do, and I want to do. They’ve been asking me which month I want to do it, so I’m getting on that.

Suzy Weirdo: Where is the show going to be?

JH: SADE. I know Brian [Lee Hughes] – the owner of the place – but I don’t really go to galleries in L.A.

BW: You’ve put on about six exhibitions, right?

JH: Yeah, but it’s the same with music. I don’t really read about it, and I don’t really go to shows very much. I’m interested, but I like the fact that things are surprising when you venture out.

It’s going to take a lot of prep. I’ve talked with Justin Lowe. I’ve worked with Freeman and Lowe for years, doing various things that incorporate music and visuals. It always ends up coming to fruition.

I know when to step on the gas, and because it’s so many different people [involved], everybody works on their own time. At the end, [there’s] the gathering, but nobody wants to be told, “You must come up with this idea right now.” It takes time, and that’s the way both the Black Bananas albums came about. And like I said before, when everything is at a certain place, you know everybody can get together and push it through.